Black Stork Nest in Karula 2020

Cameras Watching over Black Storks nest
Post Reply
User avatar
Swenja
Registered user
Posts: 496
Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:35 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Black Stork Nest in Karula 2020

Post by Swenja » May 23rd, 2020, 10:12 am

10:08 Karl II broods. The sun is shining today.

Image

Summi
Registered user
Posts: 2496
Joined: September 14th, 2009, 11:54 am
Location: Estonia

Post by Summi » May 23rd, 2020, 10:16 am

Kiser wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 10:09 am
23:38 oh yes ... it was very scary :unsure:
... and very loud, as if "speaking" to the microphone

User avatar
Swenja
Registered user
Posts: 496
Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:35 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Post by Swenja » May 23rd, 2020, 10:21 am

Hello Summi and Kiser :hi:

At 23:38 yesterday the sound I would think is a deer. It doesn't sound like "barking".
It's more of a hoarse sound. Kaia rattles her beak. It went on for a while.

10:50 it's warm

Image

10:52 Nestwork

Image

Trine
Registered user
Posts: 1393
Joined: January 19th, 2016, 9:36 pm

Post by Trine » May 23rd, 2020, 11:19 am

Talking about night sounds:
01.56-57 distant howling; dogs began barking minutes earlier. A dog concert.
Birds began singing ca 03.05 already. A bird concert.
The feelings evoked by the two concerts are absolutely different. Night and day. Darkness and light. Ominous and cheerful. One may continue with archetypal dichotomies :laugh:

Kiser
Registered user
Posts: 23
Joined: July 27th, 2019, 10:41 am

Post by Kiser » May 23rd, 2020, 11:29 am

Swenja wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 10:21 am
At 23:38 yesterday the sound I would think is a deer. It doesn't sound like "barking".
It's more of a hoarse sound. Kaia rattles her beak. It went on for a while.
it seemed like someone sinister was breathing right into the microphone :shock:

User avatar
Swenja
Registered user
Posts: 496
Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:35 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Post by Swenja » May 23rd, 2020, 11:34 am

Kiser wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 11:29 am
it seemed like someone sinister was breathing right into the microphone :shock:
It was really a strange sound. :puzzled:

Sometimes it also sounds like a song thrush singing directly into the microphone. But is not directly on the microphone. I don't know how sensitive the microphone is.

User avatar
Swenja
Registered user
Posts: 496
Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:35 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Post by Swenja » May 23rd, 2020, 1:53 pm

13:50 Karl II gets up and airs the eggs, loosens the bottom of the nest and sits down again.

Image

14:15 Air the eggs, go to the toilet and continue brooding. Karl II has a lot to do. :thumbs:
It is a beautiful day and I am happy about this calm.

Image

Hellem
Registered user
Posts: 17339
Joined: June 28th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: Tallinn

Post by Hellem » May 23rd, 2020, 3:05 pm

14:46 The cam stopped
15:13 The cam is back

L-H
Registered user
Posts: 27
Joined: April 30th, 2016, 7:09 pm

Post by L-H » May 23rd, 2020, 3:20 pm

Trine wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 11:19 am
Talking about night sounds:
01.56-57 distant howling; dogs began barking minutes earlier. A dog concert.
Birds began singing ca 03.05 already. A bird concert.
The feelings evoked by the two concerts are absolutely different. Night and day. Darkness and light. Ominous and cheerful. One may continue with archetypal dichotomies :laugh:
There are definately dogs somewhere nearby, I heard them yesterday morning too. But there is also something else barking, maybe a fox?

Trine
Registered user
Posts: 1393
Joined: January 19th, 2016, 9:36 pm

Post by Trine » May 23rd, 2020, 3:35 pm

L-H :hi:
This is certainly possible. My ability to differentiate canids by voice is very limited.

User avatar
Swenja
Registered user
Posts: 496
Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 2:35 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Post by Swenja » May 23rd, 2020, 3:43 pm

15:39 Somebody is there. Visitor?

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
Anne7
Registered user
Posts: 4749
Joined: April 15th, 2016, 3:26 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Anne7 » May 23rd, 2020, 4:07 pm

Hello, everyone :wave:
Swenja wrote:
May 21st, 2020, 6:55 pm
...
It is not certain what will happen to the eggs when you consider that these eggs are probably the first eggs of the young female. Can the eggs be unfertilized? :unsure:
So far, there have been more than 2 days between egg laying. Karl II started breeding immediately when the first egg was laid.
So it remains very exciting. :nod:
I only realized this morning that what Liz :hi: kindly wrote, is from the German book:
Der Schwartzstorch
Gerd Janssen, Martin Hormann, Carsten Rohde.
2004, 2013
viewtopic.php?p=733904#p733904

I have the same book and, because it is really interesting, I have retyped the concerning paragraph in its entirety, for the German-speaking forum members.

"... In allen Teilen des Brutgebiets kann sich der Brutbeginn erheblich verzögern. Das kann bei Nachgelegen, Spätankünften und Revierneugründungen der Fall sein. Bei solchen Gegebenheiten ist in Mitteleuropa mit einem Brutbeginn noch bis Ende Mai oder gar Anfang Juni zu rechnen.
Abgesehen von Nachgelegen erfolgt jährlich nur ein Gelege. Dieses besteht im Normalfall aus 3 bis 5 Eiern (Abb. 76). Vollgelege mit 2 bzw. 6 Eiern bilden die Ausnahme. Einen Sonderfall stellt der Nachweis eines Geleges mit 7 Eiern 1989 in der Brjansk-Region in Rußland dar (SHPILENOK
1993). Durchschnittliche Gelegestärken wurden u.a. ermittelt für Polen: 4,05 (n = 96) (CZUCHNOWSKI & PROFUS 1995); Dänemark: 4,01 (n = 56) (SKOCGAARD 1920); Weißrußland: 3,46 (n = 37) (TISHECHKIN & SAMUSENKO 1995); Litauen: 3,9 (DR0BELIS 1995); Georgien und Aserbaidschan: 3,58 (n = 48) (ABULADZE 1993); Turkmenistan: 3 bis 4 (RUSTAMOV 1993); Ukraine: 4 bis 5 (AFANTASAYEV et al. 1993); Südafrika: 3,21 (n = 19) (SIEGFRIED 1967) und 3,37 (n = 19) (TARBOTON 1982); China: 4,57 (n = 7) (MA MING 1993). Diese Werte werden hingegen bei Nachgelegen bzw. sehr späten Bruten nicht erreicht. In solchen Fällen dürfte eine Gelegestärke von 3 bis 4 Eiern (REY 1905, SCHALOW 1919, NEUMANN 1920) schon die obere Grenze sein.
Dafür spricht auch der Sachverhalt, daß bei Nachgelegen oder sehr spät eingeleiteten Erstbruten nur 1 bis 2 Jungstörche flügge werden. So ermittelte ROHDE (unpubl. 2002) in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern von 1988 bis 2002 bei 13 Nachgelegen bzw. Spätbruten 10x1, 2x2 und 1x3 ausgeflogene Jungstörche, und in Schleswig-Holstein flogen von 1985 bis 2003 bei 9 registrierten Nachgelegen bzw. Spätbruten 2x1 und 7x2 Jungvögel aus (JANSSEN & KOCK, Tagebuch SCHULZ).
Offen bleibt allerdings die Frage, wieviele Eier bei Nach- oder Spätgelegen tatsächlich im Nest liegen und wie hoch davon die Rate unbefruchteter Eier ist. ..."



I tried to make a (very simplified) translation (or rewriting) into — hopefully understandable — English:

Breeding can be significantly delayed in all parts of the breeding area. It may happen in case of a renewed (2nd) egg-laying, a late arrival or a new territory. In Central Europe, the breeding-start can in such cases be expected until the end of May or even the beginning of June.
Except for a renewed (2nd) egg-laying, there is only one clutch per year. Usually a clutch consists of 3 to 5 eggs. Clutches of 2 or 6 eggs are exceptional. One particular case was a clutch of 7 eggs in 1989 in the Bryansk region of Russia. The average number of eggs: Poland: 4.05; Denmark: 4.01; Belarus: 3.46; Lithuania: 3.9; Georgia and Azerbaijan: 3.58; Turkmenistan: 3 to 4; Ukraine: 4 to 5; South Africa: 3.21 and 3.37; China: 4.57.
However, these numbers are not achieved in case of a renewed (2nd) egg-laying or very late brooding. In such cases, 3 to 4 eggs may be the upper limit.
This is partly supported by the fact that only 1 to 2 young storks fledge in case of a 2nd brood or if the eggs are laid very late. Between 1988 and 2002, Rohde found 13 nests with 2nd broods or late brooding in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, of which 10 x 1, 2 x 2 and 1 x 3 young storklets fledged. Between 1985 and 2003, from the registered 9 nests with renewed (2nd) broods or late brooding, 2 x 1 and 7 x 2 young birds fledged in Schleswig-Holstein.
However, it remains an open question how many eggs are actually laid in case of a 2nd brood or a late brood, and how many of these eggs are unfertilised.


Thanks, Liz. :wave:
Your post gives us some hope that at least one of these eggs will hatch and that we possibly will witness a fledging storklet.
I cross my fingers.
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

Trine
Registered user
Posts: 1393
Joined: January 19th, 2016, 9:36 pm

Post by Trine » May 23rd, 2020, 4:27 pm

Anne, thank you so much for retyping the text with all numbers and references, and providing a comprehensive summary in English. I admire your commitment.

User avatar
sova
Registered user
Posts: 13581
Joined: October 14th, 2015, 7:11 pm

Post by sova » May 23rd, 2020, 4:29 pm

:hi:

Thanks Anne :2thumbsup:

Trine
Registered user
Posts: 1393
Joined: January 19th, 2016, 9:36 pm

Post by Trine » May 23rd, 2020, 4:37 pm

So here's my simple-minded interpretation:
If the eggs won't hatch then it'll be allright, and if the eggs hatch there's still a great chance for things to end up well (=successful fledging). Right?

EDIT: I saw only now the last paragraph in Anne's post.

User avatar
Anne7
Registered user
Posts: 4749
Joined: April 15th, 2016, 3:26 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Anne7 » May 23rd, 2020, 4:47 pm

Trine wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 4:37 pm
So here's my simple-minded interpretation:
If the eggs won't hatch then it'll be allright, and if the eggs hatch there's still a great chance for things to end up well (=successful fledging). Right?

EDIT: I saw only now the last paragraph in Anne's post.
Trine :wave:

I think that, if one or both eggs hatch, there is a reasonable chance that we will see 1 storklet fledge successfully. Perhaps even both?
Well, this is what the book says.
We must not forget that these observations were made in Germany.
Perhaps the breeding season in Germany is a little longer than in Estonia.
It is encouraging, however, that the observations took place in Northern Germany
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

User avatar
Anne7
Registered user
Posts: 4749
Joined: April 15th, 2016, 3:26 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Anne7 » May 23rd, 2020, 4:51 pm

sova wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 4:29 pm
:hi:

Thanks Anne :2thumbsup:
With great pleasure, sova. :wave:
Although typing this German text was not really a great pleasure. :mrgreen:
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

Trine
Registered user
Posts: 1393
Joined: January 19th, 2016, 9:36 pm

Post by Trine » May 23rd, 2020, 5:00 pm

Anne7 wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 4:47 pm
I think that if one or both eggs hatch there is a reasanable chance that we will see 1 storklet fledge successfully. Perhaps even both?
Well, this is what the book says. We must not forget that these observations were made in Germany.
Of course, it was in Germany. But I find it a good thing that it was in northern Germany :innocent:

Rohde counted storklets who fledged. He did not know how many eggs the late clutches had. But what about chicks who possibly did not fledge? This is not mentioned, is it?

EDIT: once again, I did not see the last editions to your post. But it's OK I think.

User avatar
Anne7
Registered user
Posts: 4749
Joined: April 15th, 2016, 3:26 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Anne7 » May 23rd, 2020, 5:04 pm

Trine wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 5:00 pm
Of course, it was in Germany. But I find it a good thing that it was in northern Germany :innocent:

Rohde counted storklets who fledged. He did not know how many eggs the late clutches had. But what about chicks who possibly did not fledge? This is not mentioned, is it?
Yes, Northern Germany! I just added the same in my post! We agree! :D

"It is encouraging, however, that the observations took place in Northern Germany."

No, apparently they did not really know how many eggs were on the nests, nor how many eggs hatched.
They only counted the fledglings. There is no mention of what happened to any other possible chicks.
“Clearly, animals know more than we think, and think a great deal more than we know.”
— Irene Pepperberg

Trine
Registered user
Posts: 1393
Joined: January 19th, 2016, 9:36 pm

Post by Trine » May 23rd, 2020, 5:20 pm

Anne7 wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 5:04 pm
They just counted the fledglings
Obviously. I simply wondered how this was done.
I mean, if they observed nests and saw storklets fledging, then they must have seen also storklets who did not fledge because their parents had to leave before their fledging - if there were any such storklets. They do not mention such cases, so there were no storklets who were left to starve before they were able to fly.
But I do not know how such observations were and are done. And there's still a possibility of early elimination by parents.

I'm afraid this post of mine sounds like a private Baldrick in Blackadder Goes Forth, asking why the world war began.

Post Reply

Return to “Black Stork Camera Forum”