Black Stork Nest in Karula 2019

Cameras Watching over Black Storks nest
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Trine
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Re: Black Stork Nest in Karula 2019

Post by Trine »

Ari19 wrote: August 21st, 2019, 9:17 pm It is fascinating how accurate the description is.
Does that mean that people in 1555 spend a lot of time birdwatching?
Of course, they didn’t have tv & gadgets so they must have spent more time outside watching the birds and beasts... Fascinating.
My thoughts exactly.
In late May, we were discussing why Karl II plucked feathers from his chick(s). Even our most devoted storkaholics said that they had never seen such behaviour before. But it looked as if 16-century people had seen it, and I was amazed: how?
(Well, maybe they saw corpses half-eaten and plucked by raptors, but this explanation is not entirely convincing.)
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Post by sova »

Trine wrote: August 22nd, 2019, 10:38 am My thoughts exactly.
In late May, we were discussing why Karl II plucked feathers from his chick(s). Even our most devoted storkaholics said that they had never seen such behaviour before. But it looked as if 16-century people had seen it, and I was amazed: how?
(Well, maybe they saw corpses half-eaten and plucked by raptors, but this explanation is not entirely convincing.)
Trine :hi:
While reading, I had the same thoughts :nod:
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Anne7
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Post by Anne7 »

Yes, it is amazing that some very old observations are extremely accurate. :nod:
And this without the help of technical aids that we have today.
(But some statements seem to be based on fantasy or human "projection". ?)

On Wikipedia we can read:
"... Humans have had an observational relationship with birds since prehistory, with some stone-age drawings being amongst the oldest indications of an interest in birds. Birds were perhaps important as food sources, and bones of as many as 80 species have been found in excavations of early Stone Age settlements. Waterbird and seabird remains have also been found in shell mounds on the island of Oronsay off the coast of Scotland. ..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornithology

On birds in art:
"... In medieval books of hours, birds had a purely ornamental function and were incorporated as faithfully as possible in the decorative borders. From the beginning of the 16th century, birds became the subject of scientific study. Voyages of discovery fuelled interest in unknown, exotic species, which was reflected in the first illustrated encyclopedias. ..."
https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/rijksstud ... ects/birds

Pierre Belon (1517–1564) was a French traveller, naturalist, writer and diplomat. Like many others of the Renaissance period, he studied and wrote on a range of topics including ichthyology, ornithology, botany, comparative anatomy, architecture and Egyptology. ...
This anatomical drawing is published in his book "L'Histoire de la nature des oyseaux"
(Also published in 1555!)
Image
By L C Miall - History of Biology, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2156279

Here is a beautiful (19th century) illustration of a Black Stork with chick(?).
(On the illustration, this chick looks like a very small juvenile.)
"Coloured figures of the birds of the British Islands", issued by Lord Lilford.
London: R. H. Porter, 1885-1897.
Image
http://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/43078720
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Post by Ari19 »

Fascinating information, Anne7! Thank you for giving us
a history lesson on birding! :thumbs:
The 19th century picture is absolutely beautiful...
Trine wrote: August 22nd, 2019, 10:38 am My thoughts exactly.
In late May, we were discussing why Karl II plucked feathers from his chick(s). Even our most devoted storkaholics said that they had never seen such behaviour before. But it looked as if 16-century people had seen it, and I was amazed: how?
(Well, maybe they saw corpses half-eaten and plucked by raptors, but this explanation is not entirely convincing.)
Trine, Sova, & all!
Could it be that 16th century people did not live in cities but dwelled more in countryside?
Perhaps people would go hunting in the nearby forests (and camped there) and this gave them a chance to observe the BS?
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Post by Anne7 »

Ari19 wrote: August 22nd, 2019, 3:43 pm Fascinating information, Anne7! Thank you for giving us
a history lesson on birding! :thumbs:
The 19th century picture is absolutely beautiful...
Ari, I really don't have enough knowledge to give a history lesson. :D
I just like to discover new things myself, and then share it on the forum.

Internet is a great source for all possible information. :mrgreen:

I'm glad you like this information.
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Post by Trine »

:hi:
It is absolutely true that humans have always had a "relationship" with birds, and not only as a food source. For instance, if you remember, last year we briefly discussed a Stone Age grave in Estonia where a child had been buried with wings of a crane at his/her hands.
And yes, I'd also "blame" Renaissance period for greatly advancing curiosity and "scientific" thinking.

It is also true that societies were not that urbanized in the 16th century, but I'm still surprised by the details given by Olaus Magnus because black storks are said to be very shy and therefore not easily observable birds. Or were they not back then? :puzzled:
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Post by Jo UK »

Olaus Magnus also refers to ground nesting black storks.
If they did indeed, nest on the ground, that would account for one's ability to observe behaviour (e.g. plucking feathers from chicks).
On the other hand, if they were tree nesting then as now, well, is an author allowed artistic license? :laugh:
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Post by Anne7 »

Trine wrote: August 22nd, 2019, 4:31 pm :hi:
It is absolutely true that humans have always had a "relationship" with birds, and not only as a food source. For instance, if you remember, last year we briefly discussed a Stone Age grave in Estonia where a child had been buried with wings of a crane at his/her hands.
I remember that very well, Trine :nod:
It is a very moving ritual. (It gives me goosebumps.)

Yes, during Renaissance the re-discovery of ancient texts and the invention of printing, stimulated learning and allowed a faster distribution of ideas and knowledge.
It was the beginning of "modern, scientific age". A kind of "scientific revolution" with all-round geniuses like Leonardo Da Vinci.
Jo UK wrote: August 22nd, 2019, 4:42 pm Olaus Magnus also refers to ground nesting black storks.
If they did indeed, nest on the ground, that would account for one's ability to observe behaviour (e.g. plucking feathers from chicks).
On the other hand, if they were tree nesting then as now, well, is an author allowed artistic license? :laugh:
Well, in mountainous regions Black Storks also nest on cliffs.
Hmm... an author is surely allowed artistic license. But a scientist? :laugh:
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Post by Trine »

Jo UK wrote: August 22nd, 2019, 4:42 pmOlaus Magnus also refers to ground nesting black storks.
Where is it written? I must have missed this part.
The author also mentions that storks can be kept in captivity and tamed (this is Chapter 14 which is not quoted here). Which would of course provide favorable conditions for observing.
A 16-century version of Makov storks? :laugh:
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Post by Jo UK »

Anne7 wrote: August 21st, 2019, 3:06 pm :wave:

Many thanks for all lovely pictures, comments and observations!


On May 31, Trine quoted this text from Olaus Magnus.
It is written in "A Description of the Northern Peoples", 1555, Volume 3.
Out of curiosity, I looked up the complete text and really enjoyed reading it!
Thank you, Trine!
It is surprising (and sometimes funny) to read what people knew about the Black Stork, some 500 years ago.
I like to share it with you.

Image
Trine, I read it here.
Since this is where they will produce their young, natural instinct prompts them to build nests in marshes rather than on men's houses. In fact, these birds are happier to live by water than on land, feeding as they do on worms, frogs, mice, fish, snakes, and the meat of other animals; yet they never eat toads.
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Post by Trine »

Thank you, Jo.
I did not conclude from this passage that storks nest on the ground :puzzled:
I understood that they live far from human settlements and prefer wetlands. Perhaps it is because of my English (unable to understand minute nuances)...
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Post by Jo UK »

I understood it to be ground-nesting because they "build nests in marshes - - - -
In fact, these birds are happier to live by water "
So, ground rather than above ground, in trees.
Marshes are on ground - wet ground, of course! And living by water. Not living on water.
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Post by Trine »

Happy by water and not happy on land - then not on the ground?
"In marshes rather than on men's houses" does not mean "on the ground".

No, I think we need the original Latin text here to get a correct interpretation. :laugh:
But maybe it is not that important at all. It is clear that Olaus Magnus's text includes both accurate and fantastical details.
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Post by Jo UK »

So is land not ground? I don't understand the author's distinction between land and "by water" For me, it is on water or on land (ground).
I suspect you are right - the author's intention would be clearer in Latin.
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Post by Trine »

Jo UK wrote: August 22nd, 2019, 6:27 pm So is land not ground? I don't understand the author's distinction between land and "by water" For me, it is on water or on land (ground).
Yes, the text is not very clear :nod:
My interpretation is based on a single sentence where "in marshes" is opposed to "on men's houses". The whole sentence seems to be a little... figurative, maybe.
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Post by Jo UK »

On mens houses is definitely not on the ground!
I think we should stop trying to interpret 16th century writing with 21st century Engish.
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Post by Trine »

Jo UK wrote: August 22nd, 2019, 7:10 pmOn mens houses is definitely not on the ground!
No, of course not. My point was that the passage says nothing about the opposition "on ground" versus "on trees".
But yes, all texts (old or not old) can be interpreted differently, and isn't it charming? :D
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Post by Solo »

whole season in 15 min.

video by Marcus Eurok
Karl i Kati - Bociany Czarne z Estonii - https://youtu.be/DUFaVE9n1tg

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Post by Jo UK »

Wonderful video especially as Marcos is now a forum member. :loveshower:
Marcus, welcome to the forum!
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Post by Marcos »

Hello to all stork lovers :loveshower:
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