Estonian Osprey Nest (Marko & Miina) 2020

[Rita]

I agree with Mogga and Cessie.

I said it in a previous post where my suggestion was disagreed with.

[Floppy Fish]

You cannot "move" a nest. You probably mean to destroy this nest, and put up a platform in a different place. I'm not against putting up another platform elsewhere, but destroying this nest is a big nono.

Destroying this nest ensures no ospreys can be raised here ever again, unless another pair of ospreys builds a nest in the same area. Such a nest would have the same predation risk as this nest. Would you destroy that new nest as well?

Keeping this nest gives ospreys an opportunity to breed here successfully. I don't think you should take that opportunity away from them. Yes, there's a chance that goshawks might take all the chicks, but that goes for any osprey nest in nature.

Ospreys have survived goshawk predation for millions of years without human interference. They did not and should not depend on us to keep their natural predators away from them.

[mogga]

°°°

I'm not sure how I was understood. Anyway, this is something that should be remembered in all considerations:

Yes, there's a chance that goshawks might take all the chicks, but that goes for any osprey nest in nature.

Every animal has prey that serves for its survival and predators that are a threat to it.

Goshawks and ospreys are part of the overall system. We humans have to consider this carefully when we intervene in any way. I don't know if and what to do here.
One thing is that it is difficult for us to watch a goshawk taking all the chicks from the nest – the other thing is what is sensible from an ornithological point of view.

[Cessie]

My understanding is that this nest was built on a platform to bring the Ospreys to this location. I could be mistaken.

The Goshawk family, that lives in this area now, will continue to come for the chicks, if there are any to come for.
This nest has had problems since the second season that it had a camera. I have watched other Osprey cameras, in other places, and once the predation starts, it happens again each season.
Ospreys deserve better chances.

[Floppy Fish]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this nest had any goshawks or other predators taking chicks before 2019? I checked the summary at the start of this thread, and the summaries on the topics of every year since 2012. I did see a few instances of goshawks visiting the nest (area), but I wouldn't consider that a predation problem.

This platform nest itself was installed to replace a natural nest that collapsed in 2011. (source) Rather than being built to attract ospreys, I think it was built to keep them nesting in an area where they previously nested?

Earlier in this thread I read that ornithologists generally agree that at this moment there is little need for additional nesting platforms. I guess that means that the osprey population in Estonia, despite the attacks we see on camera, is doing well?

I think it would be good to have some more data about the "aftermath" of predation events, especially when it causes complete nesting failure. I'm not aware of any nest where predation causes complete nesting failure year after year after year... Not even Hog Island. Predation there caused complete nesting failure in 2015, 2017 and 2020, but not in 2016, 2018 or 2019.

I think ospreys deserve a chance to survive and outsmart their predators without any human assistance. That way they'll have a much better chance in the likely case we ever stop assisting them!

[Cessie]

Yep, floppy fish, what needs to be done is to have the camera moved to a different nest platform where there are successful fledges and not all of this drama and chicks being preyed on. Right! I hope that you agree.

[Floppy Fish]

I'm actually curious myself what happens to this nest for the remainder of this season, and the next. If there's no camera, I hope information will be available about it at some time!

I'm sure this nest will know good times again. We just don't know when they will come...

[Cessie]

Floppy Fish, if you ever have the time, please go back into the forum from the very beginning first season onwards.

[asteria]

In 2016 one chick was also taken by some predator but it is not known by whom exactly. Maybe it was also a goshawk.

... from the moral point of view, such an idea is simply not asteria.
You mean dear for the chicks but you can't keep a wild animal on off. You are destroying an intact life of an entire family. It is a completely normal cycle in the animal world that they can beat food and be beaten.

The fact is that in two days the nest of the happy osprey family changed into the empty nest. It could be prevented but it wasn't. Some people are comforting themselves that "it is nature, it is normal". It is much easier than to realize that something is doing wrong.

[sova]

Good morning to all

Have browsed forum (topic 2018) of this nest and have the feeling that Marko was already on this nest in 2018 ... with female MM

viewtopic.php?p=586065#p586065

viewtopic.php?p=586591#p586591

viewtopic.php?p=586694#p586694

viewtopic.php?p=596883#p596883



At the end of the season, I think Miina was already on this nest
viewtopic.php?p=605895#p605895

Of course, I can be wrong

[mogga]

The fact is that in two days the nest of the happy osprey family changed into the empty nest. It could be prevented but it wasn't. Some people are comforting themselves that "it is nature, it is normal". It is much easier than to realize that something is doing wrong.

But, @asteria, one must also ask oneself, what should the task of humans be?

We cannot turn everything that seems cruel and hard to look at in the world of animals into a healed world. That is not possible.

Then we would have to remove goshawks from nature and keep them in cages. We would also have to remove ospreys from nature because they catch fish and eat them alive. And we would have to take the second born from Lesser Spotted Eagle's nests and raise it by hand.

I'm not saying to stop thinking about this nest. I'm just saying that there are reasonable limits to what we can do for this or that brood couple.

[mogga]

°°°

What also interests me:

Was Marko's behavior in the situation a typical behavior of an osprey male? I don't know, I have too few comparative examples.

He doesn't show his face all day, doesn't bring any more fish and when he finally dared to come in the evening, he flies away as quickly as possible. That doesn't seem very experienced to me. With the foreign ospreys he stood on the nest together with Miina and made the typical alarm calls.

I wonder if a pair of ospreys can sometimes stand up to a goshawk. I suspect that this also happens. The way it looked to me, I wouldn't trust Marko and Miina to raise their chicks anywhere else if there is a goshawk around. But maybe they will learn from their own experiences, these are all things I don't know ...

[Anne7]

The simplest idea would be to catch the goshawk and lock it somewhere in Summer time, while ospreys are breeding. Feed it with meat. As soon as ospreys fly away release the hawk again.

Asteria
As painful as it was to observe the events on this nest, I can hardly believe that such 'ideas' are expressed in earnest on the forum.

On the Latvian WTE nest, the parents brought this year: an 'intact', living hawklet , several dead hawklets (perhaps these were buzzard chicks), a Lesser Spotted eagle chick, a hen harrier (Circus cyaneus), a big mammal (I first thought it was a cat, but possibly it was (the pup of?) a raccoon dog), etc ...

Should we also lock up all WTEs during the breeding season?
Why would it be perfectly OK (for predators) to eat fish, frogs, snakes, voles and mice and NOT OK to eat (some specific?) birds or, let’s say, squirrels?
(For example, personally I think mice are really cute. Should we therefore lock up all predators that eat mice? And what will we feed those predators in their cages? I am very sorry if mice are born as a prey species, but that’s the way it is.)

The foundation of all life on earth is "eat and be eaten". All living creatures are part of a food chain.
The young of apex predators are still vulnerable and may become food for other predators.


I recommend reading this entire article:
What’s the Difference Between Food Chain and Food Web?
https://sciencestruck.com/what-is-diffe ... n-food-web

Ecological community is the collection of individuals belonging to different species, occupying the same habitat, at the same time. The interaction between these individuals for their survival gives rise to various food chains, which ultimately give rise to various food webs.

Terrestrial food chain

© https://sciencestruck.com/what-is-diffe ... n-food-web
The food chain can be defined as a simple representation of who-eats-who. It is a chain of interdependence between different individuals of an ecology for their food. In other words, it is the feeding relationship between different individuals.

Terrestrial food web

© https://sciencestruck.com/what-is-diffe ... n-food-web
In nature, no food chain operates on its own. Every food chain is connected to other food chains by the individuals belonging to it. This interconnected network of food chains is called a food web. Each food chain is just one part of the food web.

The less we intervene in the food chains and food webs, the better!
Nature does not need us, on the contrary, nature would be better off without humans (in general).


And also this article:
To Rescue or Not, That is the Question With Distressed Animals
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news ... d-animals/

“The rule of thumb is that if human activity causes an animal to become injured or orphaned, we may intervene. If not — if it’s something that happened naturally — then we don’t,” says ecologist Doug Smith, who oversees Yellowstone’s wolf and avian management.

“The circle of life can be difficult to observe at times, but no animal goes to waste.”

“Everyone wants a happy story, but if you are a predator, another animal must lose its life in order for you to live,” Landis says. “In nature there are no easy deaths out there, not for predators or for prey.”


Edit: I know a vet who is furious because some vegan cat owners put their cats on a diet of plant proteins, such as soy. All those poor cats get seriously ill because of food-deficiencies. If you are a predator you need meat, whether or not caught yourself.

[asteria]

And we would have to take the second born from Lesser Spotted Eagle's nests and raise it by hand.

In 2010-2011 there was indeed such a project in Latvia when the second eggs were taken away from LSE nests and the eaglets were grown up separately.

[sova]

13. Juli

Good morning to all

...

Anne, thank you for your effort.

[sova]

18:08 / 09 .... which bird is that ?
(hawk) - that was near the camera or on the camera

[mogga]

18:08 / 09 .... which bird is that ?
(hawk) - that was near the camera or on the camera

sova

I don't know, I have to ask my experts, wait a minute...

[Polly]

Hello
If I can anticipate ... it definitely sounds like a hawk. Oddly enough, even after alarm calls.
The different calls of the hawks sound very similar. This appears to me from the observation of Boka's nest but very well known as an alarm call. I'm also looking forward to an expert opinion.

[pazi]

what needs to be done is to have the camera moved to a different nest platform where there are successful fledges and not all of this drama and chicks being preyed on.

I think information about failed nestings is just as valuable to the ornithologists, if not even more so than when everything goes smoothly.
It is sometimes hard to watch, but that's the way it goes.

[mogga]

°°°

sova, Polly

It actually sounds a little like a certain call of the goshawk.

Namely, this one:
https://www.xeno-canto.org/533684

But it might be more of a Grey-headed Woodpecker. It sounds a little different depending on the state of arousal. Here are two examples that come close to the one at 18:08:
https://www.xeno-canto.org/296212

https://www.xeno-canto.org/92349

The experts are still arguing, I will wait what they finally agree on. Right now, the woodpecker is leading...