Discussion of Hunting

Discussions about all issues like transmitters, ringing, hunting
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Arvi
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Re: Discussion of Hunting

Post by Arvi »

Liis wrote:All game hunting in Estonia - except wild boar - is time limited; for wolves November to February (I think; again - any hunting or game people around on the forum?).
I'm not a hunter, but searching for "jahieeskiri" gives https://www.riigiteataja.ee/akt/264455
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Post by Liis »

alice44 wrote:I think our folk tales have a powerful hold on us.

Maybe also bears are quiet while wolves sing. The howl of a wolf even the yip of a coyote seem to have real power.
But folk tales come from people's feelings and minds. So if in those tales wolves are frightening, it was because people saw them so. But of course as the tales get handed down, they may have changed to reflect more "contemporary" views.

I seem to remember that Ilmar Rootsi - the man with a 500+ page book and a nearly 300-page doctoral thesis on wolves - has stated that wolves were not seen as evil or bad beings in the old Estonian tales and traditions.
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Post by Liis »

Wolf hunting times in Estonia
Arvi wrote: -------I'm not a hunter, but searching for "jahieeskiri" gives https://www.riigiteataja.ee/akt/264455
Thank you, Arvi (and nice to see you again in forum!)!

It seemed first according to the Hunting regulation referred to that the Estonian hunting period for wolves had been extended: lasting from August 1st to March 31st; however, some hunting methods could only be used for part of that period. Basically only 4 months per year then with no hunting.
However, other sources - i a hunting societies' info to members - stated that wolf hunting is limited to October 1st - February 28th. :book: So I dug a little more.
A nicely coloured hunting calendar HERE from the Estonian Hunters' Society, for instance, gives 3 months of hunting, Dec - Feb (incl) for wolves and refers to another edition of the Hunting regulation, evidently updated more recently than above - saying Nov 1st - Feb 28th.

I have described this at some length, partly because of the discussion of copyrights which also touches on references, dating and clarity in and about web sources, badly lacking on Internet.
It was certainly not easy to see which Hunting regulation that was actually the current edition, and where and when it had been updated (the later web page was copyrighted by the Ministry of Justice 2012, but the earlier one looked completely similar and official in everything).

In addition to wild boar also foxes, raccoon dogs and American mink can be hunted all year round. Here too limitations for certain hunting methods.
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Post by Eden »

Liis wrote: I seem to remember that Ilmar Rootsi - the man with a 500+ page book and a nearly 300-page doctoral thesis on wolves - has stated that wolves were not seen as evil or bad beings in the old Estonian tales and traditions.
Concerning other countries:
not to forget the role of the roman-catholic church, being present in many European countries (banished from Estonia at the beginning of 17th century).

Many Europeans saw the wolf as natural enemy, as monster. The legend of the werewolf, being in league with the devil, was invented. The wolf became a symbol for the evil and this image of a living devil was very convenient for the roman-catholic church, the consequences for humans and wolves are well-known.

Is the legend of the werewolf existing in Estonia?
One planet meets another. Planet 1 says to Planet 2, “Hey you look terrible”. Planet 2 says, “Yes I know. I have Homo Sapiens.” Planet 1 says, “Don’t worry. I had that too and it will soon disappear.
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Post by juta »

Eden, yes it´s known in Estonia. Here is about werewolf witch trials:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf_witch_trials
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Liis
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Post by Liis »

Eden wrote:
---------------------
Is the legend of the werewolf existing in Estonia?
As Juta wrote, it certainly is.
How original Estonian beliefs were changed by contacts with the ruling classes during the long period of other ruling powers and the ever-present local Baltic-German nobility landowners is another question.

Ilmar Rootsi on the role of wolves in Estonian traditions HERE
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Post by Eden »

The topic wolf is a very complex one, on the one hand the wolf is respected, admired and adored, on the other hand pursued, hated and killed in the most cruel way (only humans are able to do that).
It would be interesting to know more about the European points of view by comparison and through the ages.
One planet meets another. Planet 1 says to Planet 2, “Hey you look terrible”. Planet 2 says, “Yes I know. I have Homo Sapiens.” Planet 1 says, “Don’t worry. I had that too and it will soon disappear.
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Post by Hellem »

Discussion in Estonian Parliament committee about bowhunting:

http://news.postimees.ee/1127508/in-pic ... parliament
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Post by Jo UK »

New topic for the Year of the Wolf.

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=541
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Post by Liis »

Hellem wrote:Discussion in Estonian Parliament committee about bowhunting:

http://news.postimees.ee/1127508/in-pic ... parliament
Hunters' and bowshooters' associations are clamouring for it in Sweden too. If that is let free, I will be truly scared of going out in forests.

Trial permission was given 2002 for bowhunting in wildlife enclosures.

I have seen people here out with their children playing around with bows and arrows. Nasty enough, and these were playthings.

As with most things it is a question of weighing the responsible and legal-minded vs the ever-present "tail" of misusing lawbreakers: how many, what damage at worst, vs. how much pleasure lost by the good guys if they can't bow-hunt.

Much easier than with guns to sneak out outside any permitted periods and areas, tempting too of course.
If you are out for the bow-and-arrow handling - why shoot animals? The killing is the point and attraction.
Silent weapons, look like fishing tackle packed up. Much easier to avoid licenses, any kind of bow will be tried, outside those meant for a rational and painless killing of prey. Very likely to be exercise shootings out in the "real woods", at any time.

The great pleasure is said to be having to get really near your prey before you shoot. A true in-depth nature experience.
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Post by Liis »

Checked hunting, methods for, in Wikipedia. Found this

"Internet hunting is a method of hunting over the internet using webcams and remotely controlled guns"

:shock: :mrgreen:
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Post by Manu »

Report studies on killing effect of lead-free ammunition.
It's from the Federal ministry of food, Agriculture and consumer protection/ Germany
http://www.bmelv.de/SharedDocs/Download ... cationFile
I'm sorry, it's only in German available, I think :blush:
I didn't read the whole text, but on page 46,47 there is a recommendation.
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Post by Madis »

Hey everybody,

I just found and watched a short movie (about 20 min) on hunting with/without lead. I think its a "must see" for every enthusiast! To be honest, that guy, with the effort to explain the issue, made my heart a bit soft! I think i have seen too many eagles and other wild animals suffering and dying of lead poisoning and its not a pretty sight, especially when you know that this could be avoided easily.
Anyways the link to the video: http://vimeo.com/anthonyprieto/non-lead-hunter
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Post by Lubaska »

Maltese Government rejects BirdLife calls to suspend hunting season
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vi ... ead.624926

23 birds shot illegally up to yesterday - Birdlife
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/vi ... ife.626116
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Post by ame »

today was the day when a battue hunt was performed near the WTE nest in Durbe, Latvia.
the hunters roam nearer or farther from the nest every year and a similar discussion tends to begin. this discussion actually belongs here.
i'll copy some of the posts here and remove them from the Latvian WTE-topic if i consider it 's necessary.
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Post by ame »

Liz01 wrote: November 30th, 2019, 3:47 pm Unfortunately, I also hear hunters every night! here were I live. It's terrible. I would have to leave the house to ignore it.
Here I can close the live stream. That is much better :D
The animals need rest in winter! They need to save energy to survive the cold period. And it is customary at this time to shoot many animals. It's not necessary. There is hunting tourism. The "hunters" pay well so they can experience their joy of killing. A tenant of a hunt told me, that he get 10 000 euros for an old deer with good antlers.
Hunters are proud when they kill a last specimen of a genus.
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Post by ame »

there are hunters and there are poachers. poachers are the bad guys. they should be put to jail if they hunt for money. but i would not say a thing like that about poachers either.
one must remember that in certain countries (and in certain times) some people hunt for a living for their families. it is not only black or white. but i think that pleasure hunting (trophy hunting) is not right.

i'm sure that these hunters today were legal hunters. organized legal hunting is regulated and they don't kill the last animals of the species. on the contrary: in the other times of the year organized hunters are trying to take care of the animals so that they can kill them in the hunting season. that is it's like raising farming animals. that it a bit crazy... :slap:

hunting deer and elk and boar is also necessary in places where the predators like wolves and bears are killed away by humans. humans have made imbalance in nature in eliminating these large predators. if elk and deer are not hunted they'll eat crops and run in front of cars on roads and kill people in that way. then people have to reduce the numbers of deer and elk when there are no other big predators to do that.

people should learn to live with other large predators. somehow people seem not to know how to manage for example with wolves. Finns are hysterical about wolves. there are people who want all wolves killed. i know an Estonian sheep crofter who says that wolves are no problem. he keeps his sheep in a field surrounded by two this electrical wires supported by thin sticks. he says that sheep stay inside and wolves stay out. Finnish crofters build two-meter high concentration camp fences against wolves. Estonian and Finnish wolves must be two different species.

i don't like the modern methods of hunting, using radios and satellite tracking of dogs etc. that does not give a fair chance for the animals to escape. i should most prefer a lonely hunter with a bow and arrow and maybe a dog, too.
...but on the other hand farm animals don't have a chance either. it is very complicated... :unsure:
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Post by Liz01 »

Image

There have never been so many deer and wild boars in Germany as in the last decade. While in the 1980 each year about 800 - 900,000 deer and 150 - 250,000 wild boars were killed, there were in the last decade about 1 - 1.1 million deer and 500 - 600,000 wild animals per year, and rising. "The hunt does not do justice to its task of stock regulation," explains Kauertz, "despite the increasing intensification of hunting, in the context of drifting and pushing hunt not infrequently in army strength of up to 300 people plus dogs, and despite the abolition of times
the stock of wild animals does not become less,
it will be more."
Reasons lie in the immense feeding of fattening feed by hunters and- as wild pig connoisseur and hunter Norbert Happ summed up in 2002 - in the hunting destruction of the social order of the animals, which keeps the reproduction in unheated populations within limits. This is also the conclusion of a long-term study by scientists around Sabrina Servanty, published in the prestigious "Journal of Animal Ecology" in 2009: the more intensively the animals are hunted, the more they multiply and the higher the stocks are.

Wild animal protection Germany also criticizes the lack of shooting training and the hunting at dusk or during the night, which regularly leads to bad hit rates. Investigations show that in public hunts on deer, or boars only every third to fourth shot is fatal. In the hunt for waterfowl, a large part of the animals is "only" injured and not immediately killed by the widespread scattering effect of the shot.

The Hunting Association's statistics show around 5 million dead animals each year, including some of the animals killed by traffic accidents. The numbers published by Wildtierschutz Deutschland count up to eight million hunting victims - 22,000 dead animals per day!
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Post by ame »

at first glance this sounds like the 'farming-kind' of hunting. when the natural predators are killed then human hunters 'have' to take over the role of hunters= predators. the poor training of the hunters is a disgrace. the hunters should pass an examination of shooting before giving the licence to hunt.

all the numbers which were given in your graphs Liz, are huge, but so is also the area of Germany. i have no idea what is the number density of the animals (how many animals per square km for instance). furthermore, the number densities must be very different around Germany. in the most populated areas there must be lower numbers and least populated areas higher. Finland is also a large country by area, but southern and northern and western and eastern areas are difficult to compare with each other. the number densities of both predators and game animals are very different in different parts of the country. one must consider the animal densities per a certain area. otherwise the numbers will not make sense.

when game animals are first fed during out-of-hunting-season and after that hunted that is exactly the kind of farming which i wrote about. it is not 'real' hunting. it is for compensating for the lack of natural predators.

i think that lack of hunting training would be a dark spot in the hunting practise of any country. it should be obligatory, naturally. as far as i know no-one in Finland is given a license to hunt without a shooting exam, an exam for each hunted species. you don't just go to a shop and buy a gun and ammunition and then go to shoot. you must practise first. then you will have to get a licence to hunt in a certain area. it is strictly regulated in Finland.

i don't know about the legislation in other countries. hunting of water fowl requires that the hunting is done with retrieving dogs. (i hope that i have the correct information about this but i think it is so in Finland. it really should be the same in other countries,too. please correct me if i'm wrong)
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Post by Liz01 »

BTW: ame, I was at many hunting events. I know what happens.We children had to hit the trees with the sticks.
Nothing has changed in all these years. I had to be there. As a child, one had to do what the adults demanded. I saw many injured animals!
I also had to learn to shoot. But I only shot at objects. Bottles, cans, rain gutter.
I resisted when I was 18 years old. I left Bavaria.

EDIT: In Germany you can purchase a hunting license after a training of only 14 days. That's not enough time to learn how to shoot well.
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