Latvian WtE nest webcamera Juras-erglis: Discussions

White-tailed eagles in Latvia

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Sonchik
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Re: Latvian WtE nest webcamera Juras-erglis: Discussions

Post by Sonchik »

ame wrote: May 10th, 2021, 11:33 am i found this:
The Modern Apprentice
...
ame wrote: May 10th, 2021, 11:42 am more:
GLOSSARY OF FALCONRY TERMS
...
Thank you very much! :bow: I will read this in detail.
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balistar wrote: May 10th, 2021, 2:11 pm OK, i'll try it once again, Sonchik.

I don't understand why you were confused by this sentence:
my sentence: "no, usually there is no need to do these movements."
and you answered with:
"I just believe that these movements occur with all food and they are necessary."

Perhaps, and with that i don't want to offend you, your failure to understand arises from your "strong spirit of contradiction" ?
i quote you: "I have such a strong spirit of contradiction"
Because otherwise i cannot explain to myself why the sentence should not be understandable to you in this context.


You write yourself, i quote you (without looking for the respective posts and reposting):
"As I wrote in the discussion thread, I have seen twice Milda do this in a dream, when her head was under the wing. So I concluded that this is not a very conscious process. But it is possible that the eagles can do this consciously as well. I don't know.
It is also possible that with hard food, the amplitude of movements is stronger and more noticeable than with soft food. Sometimes these movements are striking, sometimes barely noticeable and only a trained eye catches them."


My sentence, which made you confused, was the answer to ame's remark as to whether this snake-like movement with the neck (or 'twisted neck') is absolutely necessary for the transfer of food from crop to stomach.

My answer only referred to the fact that this (and only this extreme movement) is not always required to this extent in order to transfer food. With soft food, little to no such snake-like movement is neither seen nor necessary. It can be a very slightly movement, almost imperceptible and/or it can look very similar like a yawning.

Now please tell me where there should be a difference to what you (see above) wrote yourself, which then prompted you to contradict. You would be contradicting yourself with that - wouldn't you ?
Now I understand more what you meant. :nod:
But let my spirit of contradiction complement my words. :laugh:
These movements cannot be subtle in themselves (otherwise I would not have noticed them), they are disguised as other movements. For example, an eagle turns its head in different directions, watching the birds and moves food into the stomach. If I didn't know about these movements, I would only see an eagle looking in different directions. These movements are long and short, which also allows you to sometimes not notice them. But still, these are pretty obvious moves, at least for me.
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Post by Sonchik »

Balistar, your question about the Silver Boy's leg has caused a lot of thought. Three days before that, I thought he was protecting his right leg. It is more often like the twigs of a broom than like an open umbrella. I hope the comparisons are clear?
I then thought that the right leg was tired from the load, because of the injured left leg, which he was protecting. In any case, I had it with a leg injury. But birds weigh less and it is normal for them to stand on one leg, unlike humans. Is it possible to compare?
After your question yesterday, I spent the whole night watching my videos, starting on May 4. Now I think there's nothing wrong with his leg. When it is really necessary, he confidently leans on his right leg. The leg does not give way.
Now I looked at yesterday's and today's events. I think we're looking too closely at him. Milda and Raimis also had the same movements hundreds of times, but we didn't pay attention to them, because we were sure that everything was fine.
By the way, looking through old videos, I found another attempt at mating on May 5 at 13: 55. But it was so indistinct that the first time I looked at it, I didn't think it was an attempt at mating. But knowing about the next, more obvious one, I looked with different eyes.
It's the same with the leg. Either we are waiting for a certain behavior and "see" it, or the Silver Boy really spares the leg. In any case, there is no severe pain, only discomfort. Otherwise, it would be more obvious.
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Post by Ajeta »

balistar, Sonchik :hi:
I would like to ask something: Must I now proceed from the assumption that every tiny bite of food an eagle takes in will be moved mechanically by him from the crop to the next organ (ventriculus / gizzard) when the time is ripe? Or are there possibly also some peristaltic movements involved (I believe the crop itself has muscles?) which propel the smaller and unresisting bits and pieces, so that the eagle's own initiative is only required for the bigger stuff, like bones etc.?
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Ajeta wrote: May 10th, 2021, 7:44 pm balistar, Sonchik :hi:
I would like to ask something: Must I now proceed from the assumption that every tiny bite of food an eagle takes in will be moved mechanically by him from the crop to the next organ (ventriculus / gizzard) when the time is ripe? Or are there possibly also some peristaltic movements involved (I believe the crop itself has muscles?) which proceed the smaller and unresisting bits and pieces, so that the eagle's own initiative is only required for the bigger stuff, like bones etc.?
I haven't read the information on the links yet, but I used to have a theory. People have a refrigerator that people go to when they're hungry. The eagles have a "backpack" with food, which they turn to when they are hungry. When they feel hungry, then they begin to move food into the stomach. Can it be explained in this way?
At least that's what it looked like for the eaglets.
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Post by Ajeta »

Sonchik wrote: May 10th, 2021, 7:48 pm I haven't read the information on the links yet, but I used to have a theory. People have a refrigerator that people go to when they're hungry. The eagles have a "backpack" with food, which they turn to when they are hungry. When they feel hungry, then they begin to move food into the stomach. Can it be explained in this way?
At least that's what it looked like for the eaglets.
I know I have a fridge - does the eagle know it has a crop? Would it not rather go fishing when it feels hungry?
I would find it easier to think that they feel some pressure in their crop (bc of some big piece) and then make those movements required to dislodge it rather than having to do it all mechanically.
What about other birds: Do all birds with crop make those movements? Or is the common way to pass food from crop to stomach the one by some kind of automatic motility while it's the big sticky pieces that make extra movements by the eagle / raptor necessary?
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Post by balistar »

Sonchik wrote: May 10th, 2021, 6:52 pm Now I understand more what you meant. :nod:
...
Thank you :faint:


Sonchik wrote: May 10th, 2021, 7:42 pm Balistar, your question about the Silver Boy's leg has caused a lot of thought.
.....
I think we're looking too closely at him. Milda and Raimis also had the same movements hundreds of times, but we didn't pay attention to them, because we were sure that everything was fine.
...
It's the same with the leg. Either we are waiting for a certain behavior and "see" it, or the Silver Boy really spares the leg. In any case, there is no severe pain, only discomfort. Otherwise, it would be more obvious.
Sonchik, i think here is another situation with Mr L, he and Milda are still not a strong bonded couple, as Milda and Raimis have been. In this respect, further fights can possibly be expected again and again. And so it is understandable that one looks with more interest at a limp or a wound.

I, too, don't think there is severe pain, only discomfort. I have written about that yesterday (previous page).
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Post by balistar »

Ajeta wrote: May 10th, 2021, 7:44 pm balistar, Sonchik :hi:
I would like to ask something: Must I now proceed from the assumption that every tiny bite of food an eagle takes in will be moved mechanically by him from the crop to the next organ (ventriculus / gizzard) when the time is ripe? Or are there possibly also some peristaltic movements involved (I believe the crop itself has muscles?) which propel the smaller and unresisting bits and pieces, so that the eagle's own initiative is only required for the bigger stuff, like bones etc.?
Ajeta :hi: , the links, kindly provided by ame, as far as i see (i have not read everything in full) they only more or less explain the terms. But neither of them can be used to answer the question of possible peristalsis**, muscle contractions that are dependent on several factors (whether at all, if so, when and for what exactly, etc.).

I'm sorry, Ajeta, i cannot answer this myself and cannot come up with another link that could possibly do it.

EDIT: **) i found a confirmation for crop peristalsis in the internet, please look at a few posts further... :D


To your other question: "What about other birds: Do all birds with crop make those movements?"
i can repeat what i've written in the o-thread, i have observed it with bald eagles and with peregrine falcons. Others i haven't watched closely. But i think all birds with crop do it, resp. all raptors.
I can't go any deeper, my knowledge about this is insufficient.
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Post by Ajeta »

balistar wrote: May 10th, 2021, 10:32 pm But neither of them can be used to answer the question of possible peristalsis, muscle contractions that are dependent on several factors (whether at all, if so, when and for what exactly, etc.).
Neither were they meant to. I have looked a bit around and now got as far as the term for this kind of inner transport system now - GI motility. Now I can look for articles.
balistar wrote: May 10th, 2021, 10:32 pm I'm sorry, Ajeta, i cannot answer this myself and cannot come up with another link that could possibly do it.
No need to be sorry - you have helped us all along a great deal :nod:
So I just had to ask.
balistar wrote: May 10th, 2021, 10:32 pm To your other question: "What about other birds: Do all birds with crop make those movements?"
i can repeat what i've written in the o-thread, i have observed it with bald eagles and with peregrine falcons. Others i haven't watched closely. But i think all birds with crop do it, resp. all raptors.
Yes, with raptors it seems the usual thing. I just wondered about other birds, bc I do not remember ever seeing anything like that. Which of course doesn't say much. I'll just see what I can find on the internet. :wave:
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Post by Ajeta »

balistar wrote: May 10th, 2021, 4:42 pm If i remember right (i haven't made notes for myself), Harriet (SWFL bald eagle) this season had a wounded foot, too. Fortunately it healed by itself.
That's comforting to know, thank you!
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Post by balistar »

Ajeta wrote: May 10th, 2021, 10:57 pm .... I have looked a bit around and now got as far as the term for this kind of inner transport system now
- GI motility. Now I can look for articles.
:2thumbsup:

Arlabunakti, Ajeta :wave:
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Post by Ajeta »

Sonchik wrote: May 10th, 2021, 6:29 pm The situation was new to us and too unusual for us to immediately be able to properly navigate it..
No, the situation was one that very likely happens to many, if not most eagles at least once in their lives. It was nothing basic knowledge about those birds wouldn't include. (To be found all over the forum, too: When the male's position in a territory becomes vacant, males come and compete for the job.) Thus the reason why we went so wrong cannot have been novelty.
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Post by Ajeta »

balistar wrote: May 10th, 2021, 11:17 pm :2thumbsup:

Arlabunakti, Ajeta :wave:
Arlabunakti! :offtobed:
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Post by balistar »

Ajeta wrote: May 10th, 2021, 7:44 pm balistar, Sonchik :hi:
I would like to ask something: Must I now proceed from the assumption that every tiny bite of food an eagle takes in will be moved mechanically by him from the crop to the next organ (ventriculus / gizzard) when the time is ripe? Or are there possibly also some peristaltic movements involved (I believe the crop itself has muscles?) which propel the smaller and unresisting bits and pieces, so that the eagle's own initiative is only required for the bigger stuff, like bones etc.?
Ajeta, i couldn't resist to search in the internet :laugh:

and i found at least this:

"The esophagus is large in diameter, particularly in birds that swallow large meals. Swallowing is accomplished by esophageal peristalsis, and in most birds appears to be aided by extension of the neck. Most but not all birds have a crop, which varies from a simple expansion of the esophagus to one or two esophageal pouches. Depending on the state of contraction of the stomach, food being swallowed is diverted into the crop, then later propelled into the stomach by waves of peristalsis in the crop."
source: VIVO Pathophysiology, Digestive Anatomy and Physiology of Birds

now :offtobed:
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Post by Sonchik »

Ajeta wrote: May 10th, 2021, 11:32 pm No, the situation was one that very likely happens to many, if not most eagles at least once in their lives. It was nothing basic knowledge about those birds wouldn't include. (To be found all over the forum, too: When the male's position in a territory becomes vacant, males come and compete for the job.) Thus the reason why we went so wrong cannot have been novelty.
I mean the size of the eagles. This is the first time we have come across the fact that our ideas about the size of eagles and their gender are so imperfect.
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balistar wrote: May 11th, 2021, 12:33 am Ajeta, i couldn't resist to search in the internet :laugh:

and i found at least this:

"The esophagus is large in diameter, particularly in birds that swallow large meals. Swallowing is accomplished by esophageal peristalsis, and in most birds appears to be aided by extension of the neck. Most but not all birds have a crop, which varies from a simple expansion of the esophagus to one or two esophageal pouches. Depending on the state of contraction of the stomach, food being swallowed is diverted into the crop, then later propelled into the stomach by waves of peristalsis in the crop."
source: VIVO Pathophysiology, Digestive Anatomy and Physiology of Birds

now :offtobed:
Thanks! So the movements we're talking about here are combined with peristalsis. I'll go read something, too. Image
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Post by Ajeta »

balistar wrote: May 11th, 2021, 12:33 am Ajeta, i couldn't resist to search in the internet :laugh:
and i found at least this:
I'm glad you couldn't resist and I think "at least" is an understatement! It's a very good description, which makes a lot of sense to me as I had problems with imagining that every little bit of food must be moved from crop to stomach by the eagle itself. I thought, as I wrote, that it is probably a combination of both. (I seem to be a fan of combinations - with regard to nearly every question, I think a combination is the answer :mrgreen: )

So thank you, balistar, very much for your late night effort - I take away from this that if I just ask the right questions people will find the answers for me while I can go to sleep :rotf:
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Post by Ajeta »

Sonchik wrote: May 11th, 2021, 4:51 am I mean the size of the eagles. This is the first time we have come across the fact that our ideas about the size of eagles and their gender are so imperfect.
With all the information around on the forum in so many topics on precisely this question, with so many situations, so much pictorial evidence of males and females - the first time? :puzzled:
In 2017 Raimis seems to have driven away a male called Tramp. That one looked very big and was taken to be a female, I think, at first. So two males, two sizes (as far as the camera can truly show.) Also in 2018, Suvi and Sulev, there was a discussion in the beginning of who is who and what sex. Or Robis and Vilnis - many seemed to think Robis was a female, while you and I think that eaglet was a male. Reinis, too, people were divided about, as far as I remember. So there have been many situations, all well documented, where this has been an issue before and where the experience could be made that it is not easy to decide as the criteria sometimes work and sometimes don't, especially as physical features are distorted, too, by the camera.
That is why I do not share the above analysis of the situation. The knowledge (especially of the ambiguity of sizes) was there - it was, that's my hypothesis, just not used. Which begs the question: Why not?
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Post by balistar »

Ajeta wrote: May 11th, 2021, 10:14 am ....
So thank you, balistar, very much for your late night effort - I take away from this that if I just ask the right questions people will find the answers for me while I can go to sleep :rotf:
Ajeta :laugh: , it's almost a kind of job sharing. I also participate; my questions that i haven't even asked are often answered, too while i'm sleeping :mrgreen:
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Post by Ajeta »

balistar wrote: May 11th, 2021, 12:26 pm Ajeta :laugh: , it's almost a kind of job sharing. I also participate; my questions that i haven't even asked are often answered, too while i'm sleeping :mrgreen:
I believe I must work on my efficiency :rotf:
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