Latvian WtE nest webcamera Juras-erglis: Discussions

White-tailed eagles in Latvia

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Re: Latvian WtE nest webcamera Juras-erglis: Discussions

Post by ame »

ok, thank you Ajeta.
these are the posts that Sonchik wrote in the observations. i think that their proper place is here.
Sonchik wrote: May 9th, 2021, 2:16 pm By the way, today I watch how Ame edits her posts for March, changes "female" to "male" , supplementing the messages with new data about the field of eagles.(this is an observation :D ) and seeing our mistakes in March, I came to the conclusion: https://www.looduskalender.ee/forum/vie ... 11#p798611 (further discussion).
between these posts Ajeta deleted one of hers.
Sonchik wrote: May 9th, 2021, 4:29 pm Thanks for the correction. I need to work harder on the translations. The word "supplement" escaped me. Only the gender in the messages was "changed". If we look at the final meaning of the messages, then the first specified gender was rejected (it didn't disappear from the messages) and corrected to another one.
I think I'm even more confused. :faint:
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Post by Sonchik »

ame wrote: May 9th, 2021, 4:39 pm ...
(i made this remarks so that also Sonchik is sure to understand. i am not sure how these words female and male translate to Russian.)
Yes, I understand. I've been having trouble translating lately. :blush:
I corrected the original message. The answer for Ajeta no longer makes sense.
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Post by Ajeta »

Sonchik wrote: May 9th, 2021, 5:16 pm I take into account only those eagles that were in the nest and Milda did not kill them. I dare say they were males. :laugh:
Ok, I see what you mean. I was thinking more of all those voices we only heard without seeing an eagle. Some of them may have come to the nest, others not - but then it becomes difficult to calculate the error ratio.
Sonchik wrote: May 9th, 2021, 5:16 pm At the same time, on a Russian-language forum, I was arguing with Olgapyat, who was sure that only males were present here. Why was I not influenced by the herd instinct and the influence of a more experienced observer? It was only the size that baffled me.
Herd instinct has to do with majority, a majoritiy following a perceived leader. A dispute between someone and an expert is not a case where herd instinct comes into play.
But I suggest we leave the personal level. I was reasoning on general terms.
Sonchik wrote: May 9th, 2021, 5:16 pm The eagles were in different parts of the nest. Their size was two times different in one photo. So I had to reduce or increase one eagle. So you can't focus on the size here.
I was not focussing on it, just noting it as a side effect. I was under the misconception that you had spent hours and days searching for those eagles sitting in exactly the same position on the nest. Edit: I'm not technically experienced enough to have thought of the possibility of resizing myself. So I've learnt something new again here! :laugh:
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Post by Ajeta »

balistar wrote: May 9th, 2021, 7:20 pm 19.11.59 Milda is pecking after Mr L's beak, twice - na na na, Milda !
i think she must show who rules the nest
Image

Image
I just love those two pictures, balistar. Exactly the right moment. But he stood up to her again, I'd say. And she seemed somehow in a bit of a state, from the time she arrived. She's not used to this kind of resistance perhaps. Or she saw his big crop and thought "That should have been mine!" :rotf:

I hope he's ok with his feet and stomach. What made him spend so much time on the nest today? Can't he sit on a branch anymore? But he will, if he spends his nights elsewhere, won't he? Or was there anyone else, a new (or old) contender somewhere around? Did Mr L stand on the nest to signal that this territory was his? But then there would have been some calling, wouldn't there? Or was he simply waiting for Milda? Well, who's taming who here? (Why am I thinking of Shakespeare now ... :whistling: ) The nicest explanation would be if he just enjoyed being there: May be he remembers his youth and how he used to stretch out on the nest after a good meal when he was still an eaglet. :D
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Post by balistar »

Ajeta wrote: May 9th, 2021, 8:31 pm I just love those two pictures, balistar. .......
:D thank you, Ajeta.
i'll come back to your post later (when i have eaten, but first i must cook :rolleyes: )

EDIT: i'm back now. Yes, Ajeta, Mr L answered Milda's last 3 pecks with standing up to her and looking at her as if he would say: "what's your problem, Madam ?" and later when she hopped up to the top branch and he was looking at her he might have thought "doesn't she like me anymore ?"

Well, of course we can only guess what was/is going on in their heads and we interpret everything possible into everything we see, imposing our human attributes on the eagles, which we shouldn't do, but almost all of us do it at some point. So, i'd like to say, yes, Mrs Milda was maybe a bit bitchy today. Whether she didn't like that Mr L doing as if this is his nest already (she might think she has not yet said "yes" to him) and she made clear that this is still "her" nest and she rules it. Or she indeed was a bit jealous of his big crop (and maybe indeed thought it should be hers) or it was just not "her day" today.

And to me it seems Milda "Queens-like" expects more submissiveness, devoted servants and hurried service from a mate, but Mr L so far doesn't fully fulfill this wish, maybe not yet, maybe never. Who knows at this stage ?
But as i said, these are all just deliberations, speculations, and they can also be completely wrong.

At least according to my impression Mr L was not feeling well today, neither with his digestion nor with his right foot. It must not mean, that he isn't able at all to perch on a branch at night, it could be that the foot might hurt him not continously, maybe fishing was exhausting today and the foot was overused and therefore he wanted to rest every now and then during the day on the nest ?

Let's see what the next days will happen.
What we all agree on, is, that we might will see a completely different picture by next spring, and thus the breeding season. As you said yourself, there will still be a lot of water flowing under the bridge (so or similar) - and Mr L may not be the last contender either :rolleyes:
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Post by Sonchik »

Ajeta wrote: May 9th, 2021, 5:34 pm ...
Herd instinct has to do with majority, a majoritiy following a perceived leader. A dispute between someone and an expert is not a case where herd instinct comes into play.
But I suggest we leave the personal level. I was reasoning on general terms.
...
I just wanted to say that I have such a strong spirit of contradiction that it is difficult to influence me. :mrgreen: Although, of course, I think about other versions and can check them for several days. But I never take sides with other people's opinions. I always make all the conclusions on my own. Even if I'm one against all. At the time, I couldn't believe it could be males. Now there is a lot of evidence for this.
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Post by balistar »

i quoted these posts from o-thread:
ame wrote: May 9th, 2021, 7:29 pm ... and i'm not sure what the "crop drop" is about. do they really need to do some movements to transfer food from the crop to the stomach. i would think that this should take place kind of automatically and gradually. :puzzled:
we had cows and sheep at my home farm. they didn't have to do anything to perform a reverse operation. a lump of food just came up from their stomach for rumination. :puzzled:
balistar wrote: May 9th, 2021, 7:33 pm no, usually there is no need to do these movements. I saw it several times with bald eagles and peregrine falcons, when they swallowed unwieldy pieces like big bone parts or long feathers, things like that. I think that these are also not easy to move later forward towards the stomach. That's exactly one reason why i think Mr L doesn't feel well today, because it is not usual. Usually food "slips" down easily only with one "haps" and without those movements with the neck.
Sonchik wrote: May 9th, 2021, 11:14 pm Of course, I know that I am the only one who has been watching the eagles from dawn to dusk without a break for three years, but I am surprised by your messages. Am I the only one who sees this?
Eagles always move food into the stomach if there is room in the stomach or it is completely empty. It is especially common for large eaglets to do this in late summer, as they eat more often than adult eagles. Eaglets can do this even while eating, if they are very hungry. Adult eagles do this immediately after eating, if they are hungry. Sometimes they start this process 5 hours after eating. Therefore, I concluded that they must be hungry for this process to start. Sometimes they do this every 5 minutes, sometimes every half an hour (approximately).
As I wrote in the discussion thread, I have twice seen Milda do this in a dream, when her head was under the wing. So I concluded that this is not a very conscious process. But it is possible that the eagles can do this consciously as well. I don't know.

It is also possible that with hard food, the amplitude of movements is stronger and more noticeable than with soft food. Sometimes these movements are striking, sometimes barely noticeable and only a trained eye catches them.

i moved my reply what was at first written in the o-thread into here in the discussion-thread:


Sonchik, i assume, this must be a translation issue again.
Because i didn't deny a crop drop at all, in contrary, i noted it in the reports. And i am surely able to see a crop drop, whether almost not noticable or -as today- very much noticable with these snake-like neck movements.

In my post you quoted above i said nothing else than you now say and (as i did a few days before in the discussion-thread as well). So, i don't really understand your point in your post - or your post at all :puzzled:

Especially what i have marked in orange colour in your post, i don't need, i know about transferring food from crop to stomach, as i assume ame also knows. But i can only speak for myself.
The point today was the weird neck movements (snake-like) which was accompanied with the transfer of food down to the stomach, which is - i like to mention it again - not always necessary to transfer food.


I beg your pardon, if my English is not well enough that it is understandable. I tried my best.
Or maybe it is my failure to understand your English :bow:

But to avoid further misunderstandings due to English-translation i'll stop writing, asking and explaining.
Maybe it is better to just write "eagle in - eagle out" - there are no misunderstandings :laugh:
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Post by Sonchik »

balistar wrote: May 10th, 2021, 12:05 am i quoted these posts from o-thread:








i moved my reply what was at first written in the o-thread into here in the discussion-thread:


Sonchik, i assume, this must be a translation issue again.
Because i didn't deny a crop drop at all, in contrary, i noted it in the reports. And i am surely able to see a crop drop, whether almost not noticable or -as today- very much noticable with these snake-like neck movements.

In my post you quoted above i said nothing else than you now say and (as i did a few days before in the discussion-thread as well). So, i don't really understand your point in your post - or your post at all :puzzled:

Especially what i have marked in orange colour in your post, i don't need, i know about transferring food from crop to stomach, as i assume ame also knows. But i can only speak for myself.
The point today was the weird neck movements (snake-like) which was accompanied with the transfer of food down to the stomach, which is - i like to mention it again - not always necessary to transfer food.


I beg your pardon, if my English is not well enough that it is understandable. I tried my best.
Or maybe it is my failure to understand your English :bow:

But to avoid further misunderstandings due to English-translation i'll stop writing, asking and explaining.
Maybe it is better to just write "eagle in - eagle out" - there are no misunderstandings :laugh:
I was confused by this phrase:
balistar wrote: May 9th, 2021, 7:33 pm no, usually there is no need to do these movements.
...
I just believe that these movements occur with all food and they are necessary.

There is no need to be afraid of difficulties. I haven't written a single message in the last few days that anyone understood the first time. :mrgreen: But I try and try, and eventually I manage to explain myself, I hope. If you do not make new attempts, you will not gain experience and in general everything will be meaningless.
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Post by ame »

Sonchik wrote: May 9th, 2021, 11:14 pm Of course, I know that I am the only one who has been watching the eagles from dawn to dusk without a break for three years, but I am surprised by your messages. Am I the only one who sees this?

Eagles always move food into the stomach if there is room in the stomach or it is completely empty. It is especially common for large eaglets to do this in late summer, as they eat more often than adult eagles. Eaglets can do this even while eating, if they are very hungry. Adult eagles do this immediately after eating, if they are hungry. Sometimes they start this process 5 hours after eating. Therefore, I concluded that they must be hungry for this process to start. Sometimes they do this every 5 minutes, sometimes every half an hour (approximately).
As I wrote in the discussion thread, I have twice seen Milda do this in a dream, when her head was under the wing. So I concluded that this is not a very conscious process. But it is possible that the eagles can do this consciously as well. I don't know. [/color]
It is also possible that with hard food, the amplitude of movements is stronger and more noticeable than with soft food. Sometimes these movements are striking, sometimes barely noticeable and only a trained eye catches them.
Sonchik, you know wrong. of course you are not the only person who has watched eagles from dawn to dusk, day after day for many years.

i am also well aware of the behaviour characteristic which is commonly called "the crop drop". i have seen this behaviour dozens of times, performed by both adults and eaglets.

i am simply not convinced that the behaviour is the process which usually described in this context. i have a hunch that food transfer from crop to stomach is a layperson's explanation to this puzzling behaviour.

so far i have not found any professional explanation for this behaviour, either scientific or in falconry (raising and training birds of prey). it would be very interesting to find such information. so far all the links i have found have led to the American bald eagles.
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Post by Ajeta »

Sonchik wrote: May 10th, 2021, 2:43 am But I try and try, and eventually I manage to explain myself, I hope. If you do not make new attempts, you will not gain experience and in general everything will be meaningless.
I admire the courage as well as the patience behind this approach.
Sonchik wrote: May 9th, 2021, 11:59 pm Now there is a lot of evidence for this.
I believe there was enough "evidence" all along. But it was misinterpreted or not taken into account.
Nobody is immune to misinterpretation nor is it a crime.
Yet an environment with an openness for and possibly even an ecouragement of diverse opinions generally helps to leave behind preconceived notions more quickly as they meet with arguments that at least throw doubts on them.
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Post by Ajeta »

As regards the ongoing exchange about the socalled crop drop: I think last year I wrote in some discussion about it that I would find it difficult to imagine that eagles must actively take care of the passage of their food through their body. I imagined all the problems this would cause, e.g. when an eagle wants to mate but instead has to crop drop, or even worse, in fight or while fishing. (Here I assume that the eagle gets some sort of signal from the crop when another drop is needed, which might be quite an erroneous assumption.) What Ame wrote about the rumination of sheep and cattle and how that runs automatically without any active help by the animal illustrates very much my own feeling.

However, I now - thanks to this interesting discussion going on - found some hint to its existence in a German web site on falcon breeding in so far as there seems at least to exist a special term for it in German falconry language:
"verdrücken - das Drücken der Atzung vom Kropf in den Magen" (with "Atzung" being another special term for food in falconry language), i.e. in English something like:
"to put away - the pushing of food from the crop into the stomach"
(My translation is a literal one, I do not know the expert terminology in English, or if it exists.)

I didn't find a detailed description of what exactly the term refers to, but I didn't look very long.
This is the page:
https://www.falconbreeding.eu/falknersprache.html
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Post by ame »

i found this:
The Modern Apprentice
http://www.themodernapprentice.com/glossary.htm
"The crop of the bird is like a pouch along the esophagus. It is where food is initially placed before it moves into the stomach. Food comes here for quick storage and to soften it and to separate out the digestibles from the indigestibles. It is useful to note that owls have no crop.
This photo shows a bird just after eating. My index finger is at the bottom of her gorged crop and my second finger is resting above her crop. You can feel the enlarged pouch when a bird has a full crop and you can even separate the top layer of feathers to see the skin stretched over the crop.

Image "

esophagus (gullet) = the "food pipe" leading from throat to stomach.
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Post by ame »

more:
GLOSSARY OF FALCONRY TERMS
assembled by Lee Eberly W. H. Over Dakota Museum University of South Dakota
"...
- crop, a dilation of the esophagus just above the sternum which serves as the immediate receptacle of food before being passed on to the stomach.
- crop, put over, process of forcing food from the crop into the stomach accompanied by movement of the neck and shoulders (a hawk puts over her crop).
- crop, put away, conclusion of transferring crop contents to the stomach (a hawk has put away her crop).
... "
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/file ... p00067.pdf

(this was a pdf of a document from 1960, originally typed on real paper with a typewriter, probably not an electric one yet, with courier font.
those were the days... :innocent: )
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Post by Ajeta »

ame wrote: May 10th, 2021, 11:42 am more:
GLOSSARY OF FALCONRY TERMS
assembled by Lee Eberly W. H. Over Dakota Museum University of South Dakota
"...
- crop, a dilation of the esophagus just above the sternum which serves as the immediate receptacle of food before being passed on to the stomach.
- crop, put over, process of forcing food from the crop into the stomach accompanied by movement of the neck and shoulders (a hawk puts over her crop).
- crop, put away, conclusion of transferring crop contents to the stomach (a hawk has put away her crop).
... "
https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/file ... p00067.pdf

(this was a pdf of a document from 1960, originally typed on real paper with a typewriter, probably not an electric one yet, with courier font.
those were the days... :innocent: )
Nice, thanks!
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Post by balistar »

Sonchik wrote: May 10th, 2021, 2:43 am I was confused by this phrase:
my sentence: "no, usually there is no need to do these movements."

I just believe that these movements occur with all food and they are necessary.

There is no need to be afraid of difficulties. I haven't written a single message in the last few days that anyone understood the first time. :mrgreen: But I try and try, and eventually I manage to explain myself, I hope. If you do not make new attempts, you will not gain experience and in general everything will be meaningless.

OK, i'll try it once again, Sonchik.

I don't understand why you were confused by this sentence:
my sentence: "no, usually there is no need to do these movements."
and you answered with:
"I just believe that these movements occur with all food and they are necessary."

Perhaps, and with that i don't want to offend you, your failure to understand arises from your "strong spirit of contradiction" ?
i quote you: "I have such a strong spirit of contradiction"
Because otherwise i cannot explain to myself why the sentence should not be understandable to you in this context.


You write yourself, i quote you (without looking for the respective posts and reposting):
"As I wrote in the discussion thread, I have seen twice Milda do this in a dream, when her head was under the wing. So I concluded that this is not a very conscious process. But it is possible that the eagles can do this consciously as well. I don't know.
It is also possible that with hard food, the amplitude of movements is stronger and more noticeable than with soft food. Sometimes these movements are striking, sometimes barely noticeable and only a trained eye catches them."


My sentence, which made you confused, was the answer to ame's remark as to whether this snake-like movement with the neck (or 'twisted neck') is absolutely necessary for the transfer of food from crop to stomach.

My answer only referred to the fact that this (and only this extreme movement) is not always required to this extent in order to transfer food. With soft food, little to no such snake-like movement is neither seen nor necessary. It can be a very slightly movement, almost imperceptible and/or it can look very similar like a yawning.

Now please tell me where there should be a difference to what you (see above) wrote yourself, which then prompted you to contradict. You would be contradicting yourself with that - wouldn't you ?
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Post by Ajeta »

balistar wrote: May 9th, 2021, 9:12 pm thank you, Ajeta.
i'll come back to your post later (when i have eaten, but first i must cook :rolleyes: )

EDIT: i'm back now. Yes, Ajeta, Mr L answered Milda's last 3 pecks with standing up to her and looking at her as if he would say: "what's your problem, Madam ?" and later when she hopped up to the top branch and he was looking at her he might have thought "doesn't she like me anymore ?"
balistar :hi: Yes to the first part, but no to the second: Surely he was thinking something like "What's got into her now?" or "O good, now I have the nest bowl to myself again!" :laugh:
balistar wrote: May 9th, 2021, 9:12 pm Well, of course we can only guess what was/is going on in their heads and we interpret everything possible into everything we see, imposing our human attributes on the eagles, which we shouldn't do, but almost all of us do it at some point.
Full agreement. And why not - so long as we know of this "trap" we can avoid it when necessary (e.g. in cases of serious attempts at interpreting the actions of the eagles from their point of view).
balistar wrote: May 9th, 2021, 9:12 pm And to me it seems Milda "Queens-like" expects more submissiveness, devoted servants and hurried service from a mate, but Mr L so far doesn't fully fulfill this wish, maybe not yet, maybe never. Who knows at this stage ?
:D Well, she sure gives the impression that she wishes respect. It would be lovely to know what they actually feel in such moments. The way they look sometimes - as if they felt embarrassment, like not knowing what to say to eachother or so. But perhaps it is something totally different. But it looks somehow familiar with feelings one knows oneself.
balistar wrote: May 9th, 2021, 9:12 pm It must not mean, that he isn't able at all to perch on a branch at night, it could be that the foot might hurt him not continously, maybe fishing was exhausting today and the foot was overused and therefore he wanted to rest every now and then during the day on the nest ?
Possibly, yes. At this mornings visits, 5:08 ff and 5:49 ff I was wondering whether his right foot looked swollen. But it may just have been the camera again. Milda's feet looked so clear in comparison, structured somehow, if you know what I mean. I read a little about potential causes for limping, and there's such a thing like pododermatitis, i.e. some inflammation of the foot due to wounds. There swellings (on the underside of the foot) can occur - and with bad luck, parts of the foot can become necrotic. Sometimes it also happens apparently when one foot is wounded and the other one used more - then that one can develop the swelling. What I have not found - understandably - is how often this occurs in wild predatory birds and what the chances are that the eagle's immunsystem can deal with it. Anyway, for all we know the problem lies even elsewhere in the leg. When I went to the vet with one of my dogs the other day bc it seemed to limp they told me how difficult it is to find out exactly where the lameness is caused, in the paw, the ellbow, the shoulder etc., when there's no obvious outward reason. We'll have to wait and see.
This message is not long enough yet, so:

Edit: If Mr L has a wounded foot and if he even - at least on occasion - feels pain, then that may have some influence on his interactions with Milda, too. E.g. if he doesn't feel stable beside her in the nest bowl and then withdraws to the edge of the nest (and there doesn't feel comfortable standing on those sticks, so that he prefers to leave altogether) or if he is more avers to her pushing him around bc it causes him pain to quickly move his foot or if he doesn't bring sticks as perhaps she would expect him to do (this morning she brought one at 5:50, but he didn't, not even after she showed him), then all that will possibly be puzzling to poor Milda, as it would not be as a male commonly acted. :slap: I hope very much that nothing is wrong with his foot.
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Post by balistar »

Ajeta wrote: May 10th, 2021, 3:29 pm ...

Edit: If Mr L has a wounded foot and if he even - at least on occasion - feels pain, then that may have some influence on his interactions with Milda, too. E.g. if he doesn't feel stable beside her in the nest bowl and then withdraws to the edge of the nest (and there doesn't feel comfortable standing on those sticks, so that he prefers to leave altogether) or if he is more avers to her pushing him around bc it causes him pain to quickly move his foot or if he doesn't bring sticks as perhaps she would expect him to do (this morning she brought one at 5:50, but he didn't, not even after she showed him), then all that will possibly be puzzling to poor Milda, as it would not be as a male commonly acted. :slap: I hope very much that nothing is wrong with his foot.
That could well be, Ajeta :nod:
Unfortunately, it is not possible for us to get absolute clarity about it.

If i remember right (i haven't made notes for myself), Harriet (SWFL bald eagle) this season had a wounded foot, too. Fortunately it healed by itself.

So, i wish Mr L that the cause of his limp is not a major problem and everything will soon heal completely, too.
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Post by Sonchik »

You had a fruitful discussion while I was sleeping. :2thumbsup:
ame wrote: May 10th, 2021, 10:05 am Sonchik, you know wrong. of course you are not the only person who has watched eagles from dawn to dusk, day after day for many years.
...
It's good. :thumbs:
so far i have not found any professional explanation for this behaviour, either scientific or in falconry (raising and training birds of prey). it would be very interesting to find such information. so far all the links i have found have led to the American bald eagles.
As far as I know, this happens in all birds of prey in the same way, so bald eagles are the closest relatives and the information about them is quite suitable.
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Post by Sonchik »

Ajeta wrote: May 10th, 2021, 10:16 am ...
I believe there was enough "evidence" all along. But it was misinterpreted or not taken into account.
Nobody is immune to misinterpretation nor is it a crime.
Yet an environment with an openness for and possibly even an ecouragement of diverse opinions generally helps to leave behind preconceived notions more quickly as they meet with arguments that at least throw doubts on them.
Yes, Olgapyat immediately saw them, but I was thinking in a more formulaic way.
The situation was new to us and too unusual for us to immediately be able to properly navigate it..
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Post by Sonchik »

Ajeta wrote: May 10th, 2021, 11:11 am As regards the ongoing exchange about the socalled crop drop: I think last year I wrote in some discussion about it that I would find it difficult to imagine that eagles must actively take care of the passage of their food through their body. I imagined all the problems this would cause, e.g. when an eagle wants to mate but instead has to crop drop, or even worse, in fight or while fishing.
...
I was thinking of something like that, too. Somehow they live with it. Everything should be conveniently arranged.
And thank you for the link. :2thumbsup:
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